On reflection: Jenny Powell 

AND A retrospective letter to herself

By Jenny Powell

__________________________________

Jenny Powell  © Tom Pitfield for BROOD Magazine Ltd

Jenny Powell  © Tom Pitfield for BROOD Magazine

A letter to myself – Jenny Powell

“This letter comes with an inspiring energy and positivity that you really didn’t expect after an unexpected motherhood as a single Mum for some time. When you were a Mum the first time around with Connie and still married you were juggling with a successful TV career and trying your hardest to be a good mother and don’t ever feel that either roles were compromised. It was fantastic to have your parents on hand full time to help with child care and over the early years of Connie’s and Pollyanna’s upbringing, how wonderful that they secured a special bond with Mum and Dad and how precious the memories are from holidays to school runs and all that’s in between. Thankfully you were always telling yourself not to feel guilty on the days, and weeks you were away filming and remember how you would dash home on the first train, flight back from wherever you were to get to the school gates or make it back for bedtime stories and the girls now say how they loved those little surprise moments! I know you were always a little bit concerned about having an 8 year gap between them unsure if they would bond as sisters, especially through a divorce at the same time as Pollyanna being born but boy there really was nothing to worry about. If anything they are closer, a perfect sisterly unit who look out for each other and always will. I’m so proud of you for keeping on happy and respectful terms with their father and how the girls have a lovely relationship with other partners, siblings, and families and there has been no bitterness or unhappiness on either side that the girls have had to experience. See, you did good! I know at times it’s been tough, wanting to be everything to everyone and still trying to run an efficient ship both at home and at work but I’m loving the way you seem to get a buzz from making things happen for your children and for you even now you’re in your mid-fifties. Look at Pollyanna, you got her to those football trials, now she’s in a professional squad and you have instilled that mindset that anything is possible. Then there’s Connie, remember when you gave her that book, The Secret, in her early teens and how it has made such an impression on her visualising goals and manifesting her dreams. How amazing it was to spend time in New York when you met your fiance Martin who was living there at the time and how the girls embraced the long lovely Summers in Brooklyn and made memories to cherish forever. Looking back though and earlier on when you were divorced you do still feel bothered that you didn’t really consider Connie’s feelings about all moving to Miami for 3 months when she was 12 years old with Martin and Pollyanna. She missed her friends, school and her Dad too but you were on a Miami mission then and nothing was going to stop you! You know what, there have been moments of doubt, if you were doing the right thing for everyone and if you were setting the right example and there will always be those moments, but communication is key and the fact that the girls know they can tell you anything is a huge result! Stick to your mantra for them Jenny, ” There are no rules, visualise what you want and go get it, but most importantly Mum has got your back and from her, your strength will come !” 

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Danielle Nicholls, Dean Holden and four of their children © BROOD Magazine

Danielle and Dean bravely opened up about how they managed to keep going through the unimaginable heartbreak; the emotional scars they were left with; how they stayed together despite the statistics being stacked against them; how they welcomed another two wonderful children, Mitzy and Chase, into their family, and how against all odds they continued to build an incredible life for themselves and their children – continually honouring the memory of their beautiful baby girl, Cici, along the way.

You’ll find it hard to find a more inspirational couple. Their outlook on life and how they strive to achieve their goals for themselves and their children would motivate anyone.

Danielle Nicholls, Dean Holden and four of their children © BROOD Magazine

You both had successful careers when you first started a family, how did that look and how did you manage that?   

Dean – “Because of our careers things have always been a bit chaotic, and we’ve always had to commute lots. When we got married I was playing for Peterborough, so I was commuting there half the week from our home in Manchester, and Danielle was travelling throughout the week to London, Birmingham etc.”

Danielle – “I was progressing in my career at the time. I had moved away from Children’s TV and I was doing bits on This Morning and Tricia, and I was also presenting Night Fever on Channel 5. I was still working when I was heavily pregnant with our first child Joey. Then New Years Eve – the tree was still up – and I was ready to pop, Dean comes home from training at Peterborough and says we’re moving to Scotland!”

Dean – “Yes, she was 8 months pregnant, it was the night before a match, and my manager knocked on the door and said, the Scottish Premier League are coming for you, you’re free to talk to them.”

Danielle – “I’ve never been as angry in my life! [she laughs] You know what it’s like with your first baby you plan everything to a tee, then the next thing you know I was packing up the whole house with my sister and brother in law, and we were on our way to Scotland!”

Dean – “Then 18 months after Joey was born we had Ellis, and it wasn’t long after he was born that we moved back to Manchester.”

Danielle – “Yes, and I loved my boys, but I remember thinking I’m way too girly to have boys, I need a girl! [she laughs] So a couple of years later, we tried again, and we were so lucky to get our little princess, Cici. I said, ‘we’ve two boys and a girl. We’re done now!’ We were happy with that. Then when the boys were starting school and Cici was nearly 18 months old, I decided that I was ready to go back to work. Dean was playing for Shrewsbury, we had Media City on our doorstep and we were back in Manchester with our family. So it just felt like the right time.

So I had a meeting with a producer at the BBC, and we were in talks for me to do some work on BBC Bitesize, to get me back into things again. Which was great, but I said well I’m going on holiday next week and he said, ‘You go on your holidays, and I’ll see you when you get back.’ Of course that didn’t happen because Cici died on that holiday.”

I can’t even begin to imagine how devastating the loss of Cici was and how traumatic that was for you all as a family. 

Danielle – “It sounds silly, but I’ve always been quite a spiritual person and I used to get my palm read and they would always say I had a split lifeline. And remember one lady saying, ‘You’re going to really change; you’re going to be one person and then you’re going to be another person.’ And it always puzzled me, but now I know exactly what she means. Because, I don’t think either of us will ever be the same as we were before Cici died. We actually talk about the ‘old Danielle and Dean’, as if they’re different people. Don’t we? [Turns to Dean] Because of what they went through…”

Dean – “…Yeah, we feel sorry for them.”

Danielle – “When I look back, you know, we had our two beautiful boys, our little princess – we didn’t have loads of money, because I had been a stay at home mum for a while – but we didn’t need the flash car and all the trimmings, all we needed was what we had right there.”

Dean – “I think one of the weirdest things was that although I’d just been released by Rochdale, it was the happiest we’d ever been.

And when we go on holiday, it’s chaotic. It always was chaos, every time! The taxi would turn up and we’d be racing round the house, and we would always get to the airport late!”

Danielle – “We’re never organised! We’re always last minute.”

Dean – “Yeah, but that was the strange thing, we were early that time. We were sitting having a brew in the living room, waiting for the taxi. Everything was really calm.”

Danielle – “He kept saying it’s all too smooth this.”

Dean – “And obviously, by the next morning in Lanzarote, Cici passed away. Now when anything is calm and organised with us, it makes me panicky and I start to worry, it’s like a trigger.”

Danielle – “Yes, we obviously both had PTSD after what happened. You know. The trauma of the speed of it. The upset. Being in a foreign country, it was just, I can’t put it into words. She just had a cold, or so we thought, you know. I can still remember her playing in the soft play area in Terminal 1. Everyone was laughing and smiling, looking at her, because she was running up and down carrying one of the soft play blocks over her head.

They’ve moved it now, but for the longest time could never ever go over that side of the airport, because that was the day before she died. You just can’t get your head around that.

I would rather live in the a scene of a horror movie everyday of my life, being chased by someone with a chainsaw or a machete, than to ever have to live that day ever again! It felt like we were in a horror movie.

I remember following the ambulance in a taxi – they wouldn’t let us in the ambulance, because they were trying to save her life. We just knew it was bad, didn’t we? [Turns to Dean] I think we left our body, when you’re that frightened you do just leave your body, because I can remember everything so vividly, yet it doesn’t feel like it was me.”

Dean – “I think for a long time after we just survived. Obviously you have to look after yourself to some extent because of our kids. And then the realisation hit us, that we didn’t want the kids to grow up with parents who are always sad. You know, we didn’t want them to think, they were ok until Cici died, but then they became alcoholics or they split up, etc, because the stats are against you and if you look at the internet in terms of that – it’s a bit of a scary place. So, we went the other way  and we made a decision to make a go of our lives.

For a long time we couldn’t have spoken about it like this, but the physiological work we’ve done is the reason we can. We’ve done all sorts of things to get here – for example, I’m a big fan of Wim Hof. To learn about your brain and how it deals with trauma is really helpful and now we are in a position where hopefully people can look at us 12 years on, and it gives people hope. Yes, we’ve got a tragic story, but we are still together. Although we have had our issues and it has been difficult at times, but we’re still here – together. We’re doing well in our careers, our kids are happy and healthy, so hopefully it provides some inspiration for others that may have experienced losing a child too, or another trauma.”

Danielle –  “Yes, that’s definitely what we hope we can do, because there is no point saying it doesn’t affect you. I feel like I was a ghost for ten years of my life, and just to be able to talk about the day was a huge step for me. I couldn’t ever talk about it, it would make me feel ill for a week afterwards.I had to have hypnotherapy and that doesn’t fix it, it just means you don’t emotionally go back there every time.” 

The pain you were suffering at that time must have been excruciating, did having the boys to look after help you to keep going?

Danielle – “Yes. If we didn’t have the boys, we wouldn’t be here now. After Cici died, just a few days after, we sat on the edge of a cliff, and we just looked at each other. We both knew what we were thinking, without saying a word to each other. If it wasn’t for knowing that our boys were back at the villa, [both Danielle and Dean become emotional]  I swear that neither of us would be here today. The pain was physical. It’s unimaginable. Unbearable.”

Dean, do you remember that first football match after Cici died?

Dean – “I didn’t have a club at the time, I was 33 years old, I didn’t have an agent and so I spent my summer ringing round clubs. Dean Smith at Walsall was my saviour. He was like our angel, because most managers would have said, you’re 33, you’ve had loads of injuries etc, and Dean said, ‘I’m really worried about your family situation’ – it was only a few weeks after Cici had died – and he said he couldn’t make a decision on it straight away. So I started doing meditation twice a day, going to see a psychologist, etc and he gave me an opportunity as a player/coach and I wouldn’t be in the game without him. And from then on I was just programmed to make him proud. And pre-season is ridiculously hard, any footballer will tell you that, so I had to focus. We hadn’t made anywhere near enough money for me to retire, it’s not like people may think. We had no savings, we lived day to day, so I had no choice, and I wasn’t prepared to lose my career, or my marriage, or for our family to suffer anymore, on top of losing my daughter. There was just something inside me, and I had to keep thinking this isn’t going to break us.

That’s obviously how I got into coaching, and now I’m a manager. I have always loved football, for as long as I can remember. Every memory as a kid involves football and I never thought I would love anything as much as I love playing football, but the manager eclipses that, I absolutely love it. When your team wins a match it’s a great feeling. I also think when you go into management and you’ve had experiences personally that you would never ever choose in a million years, it helps you to empathise in a way that the coaching courses can’t teach you.”

Danielle, at what point did you know that you needed to start working on your career again and how important do you think it has been for you?

Danielle – “It was covid. Dean had got a great manager’s job at Bristol, and I’m not going to lie I was a bit jealous, because he was off living the dream and because of covid there were a lot of restrictions and so most of the time I was at home with the children. And I had started doing online gaming, as a way of switching off, but also as a way of spending time and having fun with my teenage boys. Then my brother said we should start streaming and suppose that gave me a little taster, although it wasn’t what I wanted to do and then when the lockdowns hit I genuinely had a bit of a midlife crisis. I had gotten to the point where I didn’t know who I was anymore. It sounds so cliche, but I was suddenly like ‘I’m Dean’s wife, I’m the kids’ mum, but who am i?’ and I can remember my mum saying it when I was younger, but it’s so true. It turns out I was also going through perimenopause and it really is a difficult period in a woman’s life. On top of that I lost access to the support groups that had kept me going and I couldn’t go to the gym, or see friends and my mental health really started to suffer. And I got to the stage where I looked at Dean and my kids – and I’ve only ever loved my kids – but I just felt like I wanted to walk away from it all. Thankfully, because I had done so much work over the years, I found myself observing myself and thinking – what is going on here? I love being a mum, I love being a wife. I love my husband, I love my kids, what is wrong with me? But then it was almost like a phoenix from the flames moment, because sometimes when everything falls to shit, you should grab that moment, because that is your moment to reinvent yourself and that’s what I did! So I sorted out my hormones. I realised I had lost myself and I needed to do something about it.”

Dean – “Danielle getting her career back saved our marriage.”

What challenges did you face, in terms of getting back into the world of TV?

Danielle – “I met with an agent and she said ‘You’re on the wrong side of 40 love, you’ve got no chance, you won’t work in TV again!’

And I asked her how old she was. She said 52, and I said to her so the last 10 years have been non existent to you? And she replied by saying, ‘yes well I’ve never stopped working though, you can’t do what you’ve done and then just come back!’ Like it was a luxury, or choice! And I said, ‘I don’t expect to just waltz back in. And I also intended to come back to this years ago!’ But, with TV presenting you’ve got to give a part of you and I couldn’t sit there, putting a front on, knowing that inside I was still a big mess. So, I had to take that time to figure stuff out. Dean was my hero, [Danielle holds back the tears] because he never stopped working, he never took that time to heal – he didn’t get the chance because he had to support us and those kids, and I don’t know how he did it.”

Dean – “I was going to an event, near the shard in London, and Danielle came with me and she bumped into an old colleague from CITV, who was now working at Talk TV as a producer and he asked her if she wanted to come on the show the next day as a guest. And we were actually due to go on holiday the next day, but the opportunity was just what she needed so I went on holiday with kids on my own.”

Danielle – “People are reluctant to take a chance on you when you’ve not done anything for a while, but you can’t do anything until someone gives you a chance and Chuck, was my angel.”

Dean – “And now she’s got her own Saturday night show!” 

You both have an amazing drive to keep going towards your goals and dreams despite the challenges you may face? How do you maintain that level of motivation?

Dean – “The thing is nothing is handed to you on a plate. We grew up in Swinton in Manchester and we worked hard to get to somewhere in our careers and we want to instil that message into our kids. But you do get knocks, setbacks  along the way, like when I was playing for Bolton, Everton put a bid in for me, but on that same day I broke my leg. I lost a 1cm and a half off my leg bone. I was 19 and was never the same player again. I’ve broken my leg three times – and never had a free kick for any of them by the way [he laughs] and so I lost about 5 or 6 years of my career in the end. But, I made the most of my career, I played till I was 35, despite it not being the career I dreamt I would have had in football. The key to all of it, which I truly believe in my heart is when we found true gratitude and that takes a long time, but when you can wake up in the morning and go to sleep every night and just be grateful to the universe for what you’ve got, it’s a magical thing because it takes away all the feeling sorry for yourself. Cici was a blessing and for a long time I would have done anything to erase my memories because it was just so painful, I would have lost all the love and everything just to lose the pain, but now I can look at it differently.”

Danielle – “It’s so hard to wake up with a positive attitude when you’ve spent 10 years waking up to remember that your child has died. Every Chrsitmas, every birthday, someone is missing, and you learn to live with the sadness and the pain, but it never goes away. You never wake up being ok with the fact she’s gone, but wake up knowing it’s ok to carry on, that’s what you learn.”

Dean – “I got sacked three days ago, and that’s hard to deal with, but no pain will ever compare to what we’ve been through, so It’s just wasted oxygen feeling angry about stuff. Obviously when it happened, the first night I was upset and angry, and we talked it through. But,then I was like, right, how can I move forward, who can I surround myself with to get back in the business. I know that phone will ring and i’ll be back in the game.”

Danielle – “I think people need to talk more about what they’re going through. We’ve got our trauma yes, but I think most people are walking around harbouring some kind of trauma and we need to feel able to be more open about it. That’s why I love doing Talk TV, because they allow the discussions and the debates. People don’t need the portrayal of this perfect picture anymore. They need realness. People need to be able to talk about how hard it is trying to balance their careers alongside bringing up the kids, and to balance living with trauma and going through the knocks of life on top of that, and I feel lucky to be in the position that I can vocalise that.” 

Both of your careers have meant that you have had to split your time between London and Manchester recently. With all 4 children in school in Manchester how have you managed to juggle it all?

“It’s absolutely chaotic at times. And I’d be lying if I said I wasn’t completely shattered sometimes. But, it’s been a juggle. I’ve been so exhausted, but so content, so it’s completely worth it. Thankfully we’ve got good family and friends, who we know we can count on for support. Luckily we’re at a nice stage where the oldest is able to look after our youngest – only for short periods of time but he’s perfectly capable. The older ones are so good with the younger ones. And when the kids have to pitch in I say to them, we’re a family, we’re a team, we work together and if we all help each other we’ll all benefit in the long run. We are both doing what we love doing and that’s so important.”

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Ben Wilkinson, Karina Jadhav and their children  © Tom Pitfield Photography for BROOD Magazine

Karina Jadhav & Ben Wilkinson images © Tom Pitfield Photography for BROOD Magazine

“I’ve always been a massive perfectionist and since having children, I’ve had to try and let go of that. “

That must have been so tough, nothing is worse than seeing your child poorly, and on top of that your business had been your baby for so long it must have been very hard.

Karina – “Yes, in the past I would have been sending emails at 2am in the morning, because I really felt that by being a female in that industry, that I had to keep trying new tactics to keep people on their toes, so that they would take me more seriously – at least that’s what I thought I was doing at the time. And so I was so used to that 24/7 way of life, that then having children, I found it very difficult and obviously I couldn’t maintain that. It was just all consuming! I’ve always been a massive perfectionist and since having children, I’ve had to try and let go of that. I actually said to Ben this morning that I’ve realised I’ve become a much calmer person, because I’ve realised that there’s so much you can’t control. That applies with the kids and in the business. I keep saying to myself I can only do my best, and that can be really hard for somebody who likes everything just so.” 

What do you think is one of the hardest things about being a working parent, specifically being a parent who runs their own business?

Karina – “I think the hardest part of being a working parent, especially running a business, is finding the time to do your work. I find myself sometimes really resenting my work as I want to be able to spend more time with my kids, but then when I’m with the kids 24/7 I really miss work! It kind of feels like one big contradiction and I almost always find myself feeling like I should be doing something different to what I am actually doing at that time. When I go to bed at night I find myself feeling bad about all the things I haven’t done or that I feel I’ve not done well enough on. It’s very overwhelming at times – I’m really not selling this am I? [We laugh]

And as I’ve gotten older I’ve learnt a lot about how my brain works. I’m a really, really creative person and I’m also very analytical, but I have to be in the right frame of mind for one or the other, and that’s really hard because when you’ve got kids you’re given an allotted amount of time where you might have to work, but you might get interrupted and I can’t get into that head space, just because it’s like ‘Right I better do that now!’ If I’m not in that head space, I just can’t switch that on. So, I always have to do the work when I’m inspired to do so and then I become possessed. I keep saying it’s hard, but it’s not necessarily that it’s hard, it’s more that it’s not organised, and I guess that’s life when running your own business alongside having two small children! It’s just a constant juggle and trying to figure things out as you go along!” 

[Ben joins us again after taking Henry to school]

Ben, just to catch up with you, at what point in your career did you become a dad and how did you find that transition?

Ben – “I became a dad during my second year at Manchester City. I’ve loved the transition, although it certainly has made life more challenging in terms of managing schedules and trying to keep all of the various plates spinning – I think that’s probably been the biggest challenge, but in terms of the other side of it, I’ve absolutely loved it. I’m just trying to be present, as becoming a dad is something I’ve absolutely loved and it’s taken centre stage in my life really.”

Karina obviously, we’ve discussed the challenges that come with running a business, but what would you say has been your career highlight to date?

Karina – “ I think the fact the business still going strong after 7 years, is my biggest career highlight, because before I opened this business hospitality was on a complete high, it was at its peak, and people thought it was easy and people were opening places left right and centre, that are no longer open and we’re really weathered the storm. I mean we’re in a recession and having an independent business when there are big London brands coming to Manchester and opening all the time, that can bring its challenges. But I’m really proud of how we keep evolving, we keep up the moment and the creativity that we need to keep people coming back. I’m also really proud of how the team stays with us, that we have a high staff retention rate too. The fact that I have an amazing team of people that I like, and trust is a massive achievement for me, as well as managing to stay open and ticking over – and even though it’s not maybe a glossy, glamourous career highlight, I feel like that’s huge!

“I think you need to be kind to yourself and others, and not be so quick to judge other people’s situations.”

Ben, being a football coach is renowned for being high pressure, how do you manage to switch off from that  and go into dad mode when you’re at home?

Ben – “I’m lucky actually with the job I’m in at the moment for a job in Football, we tend to get most Sundays off and something in the week which allows me to spend quality time with the boys and i feel like in those moments i can be really present. ,           

Karina – “Ben’s job is perfect for our family. And we think it’s really important for him to just enjoy this job and focus on that rather than look to try and move into first team management at this time, because if he took a job abroad or somewhere else in the UK as a first team manager then we wouldn’t be able to do what we do. I know I would really struggle.”

Ben – “Yeah, I think I’m really aware of what does come next. I am studying for my Pro Licence at the moment and there’s a module on current problems In the workplace and probably 50-60% of the people who are on the courses are managing a first team, and they all talk about work life balance and how they really struggle with it. I have witnessed it myself,      especially as you’re not always blessed to have a job that’s close to home, then you have to move your family, and it often involves travelling, so we’ve spoken about it loads.  I’m really blessed to be at City it’s an amazing place to work and learn, and in terms of growing my knowledge and skill set there’s no better place to be.  I think people can be too quick to jump to the next thing, and always thinking right what’s next, but I’m really enjoying what I’m doing and I feel content with where I am.”

Karina – “It’s so nice for the kids as well, they do loads of stuff for families. I do look at his job and I envy it at times, because mine is so chaotic and Ben’s job is so orderly. [She laughs]”

What impact has becoming parents had on your relationship? There’s so much to navigate through, it can be really challenging to remember to give time to being a couple. How have you found that side of becoming a parent? 

Ben – “I think it’s just different. We’re lucky that we’re on the same page. With everything that you have to manage daily, we are always on the page as to what we should prioritise, so that really helps in a relationship.”

Karina- “I always say to Ben, I’m so glad that the universe sent you to me, because it was like he was just plonked right in front of me and honestly having children     , I don’t think I would have coped if we weren’t the team that we are. Especially as we’ve had so many health issues with Henry, it’s pushed us even closer together. I think prior to having kids we did whatever we wanted to do, and then you have a kid and it’s the biggest life change and it will either make you as a couple or it will break you. And with us it’s brought closer.”

Ben – “I think the fact that we’re both content in how our lives have changed and that we’re happy just sitting down in front of the tele and having a couple of hours together in the evening, really helps too. And it also helps that we’re both understanding if one of us has to open the laptop etc as well”.

Do you have stand out BROOD moments that you can share?

Karina – “Oh there are so many things that happen each week. But I was delivering a team meeting the other week and I was letting them know certain things that I wasn’t happy with. Listing things that needed to be better and all the while, Henry was shouting ‘Mummy! Mummy! Mummy!’ Totally undermining my assertive delivery!” [She laughs]  

Ben – “We were trying out one of them walking baby carrier chairs, the ones that you put on your shoulders, and we were taking a picture and Henry just started throwing up everywhere! So in the photo you just see me smiling with Henry in the carrier on my shoulders and then the sick coming out in stages and me ending up covered in sick!” {We all laugh]  

What do you think the benefits are of your children seeing you have a career that you’re passionate about?

Ben – “Henry is really proud of where we both work. And even though he’s only 4, he is really aware of what we do. If we’re in the car and anywhere near Spinningfields, he’ll say, ‘Are we going to Mummy’s restaurant?’ And he’s always telling people about Mummy’s restaurant. And he absolutely loves coming to city.     . Henry has just started to get into Football. In the last few weeks, he has wanted to play every day, loves putting his City kit on and has also started collecting stickers which he is really passionate about and does not let anyone near!! He also thinks anyone who has anything to do with football is my friend. [He laughs]

Karina – “Who is it that he thinks you are on the football cards?”

Ben – “He thinks I’m Kevin De Bruyne on the football cards. [We laugh] And I’ll take that all day!

What advice would you give other parents who are following their career dreams whilst juggling parenthood?

Ben – “The biggest thing that I follow and what I say to people at work is enjoy the time being a parent – especially the early years, because you don’t get it back. We had someone who went off a few weeks ago and when the baby was around 3 weeks old, they were fretting about coming back to work. I just said, ‘      You’ll never get this time back and it’s amazing, don’t feel like you have to rush back into work.’ So I think just try and enjoy every moment that you can with the kids and then just work really hard at managing your schedule so that you can still maintain your career.”

Karina – “I think it depends on what stage of your career you’re at as well though, as we were further into our careers when we had kids. And even though I was further into my career I still have found it hard to deal with the change in pace, because in my industry a lot of people are men and they will be opening this, doing that and for the last 4 years I’ve felt like I’m a step behind, people will say ‘What’s your next step?’ ‘What are you doing next?’ and I’d be like, ‘I’ve just had a baby.’ But it’s almost like you have to whisper it because of how that is met within the industry, because it’s a male dominated industry and it’s not set up for women to have children. I really regret with Hen not saying, ‘I’m taking this time’, because I didn’t give myself any maternity leave. I thought I would just keep working, and I feel like I missed things because I was so stressed about work at times. One thing I’ve come to realise now that I’m 7 years into this restaurant, is that it doesn’t even matter, because you can spend your time really worrying about something in your business, but then a few weeks later it won’t’ even matter anymore, but when it’s your own business you get so caught up in it, because you feel like it’s make or break, but a lot of the time it’s not and the things you do remember are the things to do with your kids. So you do need to be kind to yourself.”

Ben – “Yeah, and sometimes you don’t have a choice, because you might not be in the position to have that time, because financially you have to look after your family. It is so expensive to have children, even putting them in a nursery to enable you to go work is a massive undertaking alone – not to mention all the other stuff that comes with it. So I do think it’s really tough. We’ve found it hard to find the right dynamic and we’ve been lucky enough to have help and support from people too. To juggle all the plates, you spin as a working parent, and feel like you’re getting enough time on everything is a massive challenge.”

Karina – “I think you need to be kind to yourself and others, and not be so quick to judge other people’s situations.”

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